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Eugene Tizon

Eugene Tizon

January 19 2011

Joomla to Nooku

Have read you blog regarding future plan to shift from Joomla to Nooku server. Will it be easy to migrate the site from Joomla to Nooku if we plan to start the project today using the Anahita Birth Release? Please enlighten. #anahita #social #networking #engine

Bernd
January 19 2011 Permalink
@Eugene

To my understanding the Nooku server is still based on Joomla but has multi-site support.

BR
Eugene Tizon
Eugene Tizon
January 19 2011 Permalink
Hi Bernd, I thought Nooku have plans to go standalone (Nooku Server) and Anahita will use its instead.
Rastin Mehr
Rastin Mehr
January 20 2011 Permalink
From: Nooku Server, Joomla on steroids

"Nooku Server will be 99% compatible with all Joomla 1.5 extensions. We are also including Nooku Framework to make it easy for developers to get started building Nooku powered extensions."

And please read how Joomla is being put on a diet: Creating a diet for Nooku Server



Nick Swinford
Nick Swinford
January 20 2011 Permalink
What about those of us who are eagerly awaiting for the day they can switch to Joomla 1.6? Will we see a Joomla 1.6 compatible version of Anahita?
Rastin Mehr
Rastin Mehr
January 21 2011 Permalink
@Nick at this point we are undecided about using J1.6 as the web platform of choice for Anahita.
Nick Swinford
Nick Swinford
January 21 2011 Permalink
That's very disappointing to hear. Since Anahita Social Engine is basically a brand new component (not that it's just a component) I figured that it would support the most recent version of Joomla out of the gate.
I think for Anahita Social Engine to support J1.6 the project would have to be forked. I think going with Nooku Server will be a better way forward for Anahita. However will there be compatibility issues with J1.6 components running on Nooku Server, chances are there might be if Nooku core developers have no plans on supporting it in the future, but that's a question for them.
Rastin Mehr
Rastin Mehr
January 21 2011 Permalink
@Nick it is very unlikely that we distribute Anahita using J1.6 and it is left as the last possible option. Not that it is difficult to do, since Anahita makes no use of the Joomla's native framework, but because NookuServer is a lot more suitable choice for what we intend to do.

Anahita was not really meant to become another extension for Joomla. We used Joomla as a stepping stone because it provides a very nice extensions manager, menu manager, and a basic user manager/authentication (slow but works for now) and naturally forAnahita to be developed it would have been as installable extensions.

If Joomla's focus was to become a light weight web application framework and platform, it would have been a much better choice, but j1.6's focus is to be a good CMS out of the box.

Software that is developed using the NookuFramework uses up to 50% less code, the code uses design patterns that reduce redundancies, even your extensions become extendible, the code is a lot more secure.
The Nooku team are quite innovative! In the long run NookuServer makes a much better platform of choice for us.

So while we haven't completely removed the option of using J1.6, we really prefer to distribute the next 2-3 releases of Anahita Social Engine with the NookuServer.

Johan Janssens
Johan Janssens
January 21 2011 Permalink
Anahita is not a Joomla component. It's a social engine build on different web technologies, like Joomla Framework, Nooku Framework, Gantry Framework etc. Joomla is only a small part of the overall solution.

Joomla itself is focussed on being a CMS, it can be extended with various components to implement and add different CMS features. Anahita on the other hand is not a CMS, nor does it offer CMS features to Joomla instead it's a different web application focussed on building social solutions.

Anahita has made the decision to use Nooku Server to build upon. Nooku Server is a lightweight version of Joomla. We are stripping away all the 'CMS' features, resulting in a leaner and meaner web application platform.

You can compare this approach for example with Linux. Take Ubuntu which is a distro of Debian. Ubuntu doesn't use the bleeding edge Debian code, instead it uses the more stable and older versions of Debian. The same thing applies to Nooku Server.

We are using the LTS (long term support) release of Joomla, being Joomla 1.5. The next LTS release is scheduled for April 2012. At that point we will upgrade Nooku Server to the new LTS. For more info on the Joomla release cycle see : http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1395-the-path-forward-migration-and-the-future.html
Rastin Mehr
Rastin Mehr
January 21 2011 Permalink
Thank you @Johan for clarification!
Nick Swinford
Nick Swinford
January 22 2011 Permalink
For me, it comes down to the fact that I may want Anahita Social Engine, but I need the advanced ACL in Joomla 1.6.

Nooku Server sounds very interesting, and even I would love to see Joomla more lightweight with better multi-sites capabilities, (I currently use JMS2Win, which is okay, but not great.) but I can't sacrifice access to dozens of developing components that I depend on solely for the benefits of the Anahita Framework.

Anahita isn't a CMS that's why I felt at least, that it needed Joomla, and it's ecosystem of extensions, for the functions that it does not include currently or in the future. Joomla 1.5 maybe a LTS release, but overall, the community has already begun progressing to 1.6 and I'd be wary about Nooku Servers ability to support the components upgraded to or strictly developed for 1.6. I would be afraid that by choosing Nooku Server instead of Joomla 1.6, I'd be limiting my options in the short or long term.

Of course, this is just my opinion, but I hope it gives you some insight into the feelings of someone who's been eagerly awaiting Anahita and Joomla 1.6. I will be keeping an open mind though and am eager to see what the multi-site function in Nooku Server is like.
Johan Janssens
Johan Janssens
January 22 2011 Permalink
Nick, that's a very fair answer and I fully understand that you can't sacrifice access to dozens of developing components you depend on. This is exactly why at this time we stick to Joomla 1.5 for Nooku Server.

Components for Joomla 1.6 still need to be made compatible and the Joomla core stabilized. From previous versions we know that this will take at least 6 months if not more. Especially components that want to make use of the advanced ACL will need thorough refactoring.

Our answer to this compatibility problem of the Joomla Framework versions is Nooku Framework (http://www.nooku.org/framework). Nooku Framework is a new framework that allows developers to build more powerful and flexible components with less code. A major advantage is that those components are compatible with both Joomla 1.5, 1.6 and Nooku Server, we even did a POC running a component one Wordrpess.

Interest in Nooku Framework from Joomla extension developers is slowly increasing. Anahita, Ninjaboard, Lifestream, Ohanah, DOCman are already being build on Nooku Framework and more components are in the pipeline.

Extensions build on Nooku Framework do not only support Nooku Server's multi-site and multi-lingual capabilities out of the box, they also are automatic upgradable. They allow to easily create mobile application for them...

I hope this gives you a bit of a better idea what is happening in the Nooku community and helps you understand the choices we are making in regards to Joomla compatibility and LTS.
Eric Doriean
Eric Doriean
February 02 2011 Permalink
As always, measured and thought of comment from Anahita and Nooku. For the main project we are looking @ Anahita for, Anahita really is a framework for us to build upon and using 1.5 and Nooku server makes sense.

But it still seams a bit weird that Anahita wouldn't be released for Joomla! 1.6. Especially as you say Johan, Nooku software works on both. With Rocket Themes now supporting Anahita, and Rocket Themes being so close to supporting 1.6 themselves, it makes sense just to support 1.6, so you don't have to field all the support questions from Rocket Template customers, asking why you don't support 1.6.
Johan Janssens
Johan Janssens
February 02 2011 Permalink
Let's consider for a moment what that actually means : "supporting 1.6". Supporting 1.6 would mean that you remain 100% compatible with the codebase of 1.6. It essentially means that Anahita would be a Joomla distro, made up out of one or more Joomla extensions to form the social features and offcourse Joomla itself. This could be a feasible approach. It's the approach chosen by many Joomla extension developers. Anahita however is not a Joomla extension, it's a social engine..

As Ash and Rastin have clearly explained in their latest blog post : http://blog.anahitapolis.com/2011/02/anahita-is-not-a-joomla-extension/ Quote : "our goal for the Anahita project is to build next generation technologies that help people connect and collaborate in highly effective and efficient ways. Our goal is not to build and nurture CMS technologies. That responsibility is left to projects such as Joomla, WordPress, or Drupal."

It is indeed correct that Nooku Framework runs on Joomla 1.6, that doesn't mean however that fully supporting 1.6 is a given. Nooku Framework doesn't care about the context it's being used in. It can run in Joomla 1.5 and 1.6. We even did a POC to run it inside Wordpress.

If a developer decides to combine Nooku Framework with another web application framework, he still needs to decide what level of backwards compatibility he will offer. Ash and Rastin have opted to use Joomla 1.5 and offer a fair amount of compatibility, but at the same time give themselves enough room to innovate and move forward.

Personally I think this is the right decision. It has taken Joomla 3 years to go from 1.5 to 1.6, and the innovation from in 1.6 from an architectural point of view are minimal. As a matter of comparison it took Nooku the same time to write a whole new web framework and Anahita to write a social engine on top of that. That's innovation and progress at work. Supporting 1.6 would simply not make sense. Progress is forward and that's not where Joomla is going.
Rastin Mehr
Rastin Mehr
February 05 2011 Permalink
I would like to recommend all the people who follow this topic to watch this presentation by @Johan it will give you a lot of reasons why NookuServer is a far superior choice for the next generation technologies compare to Joomla. Start from 2:20

Johan Janssens presentation about Nooku Framework and Nooku Server
Nick Swinford
Nick Swinford
February 06 2011 Permalink
A very interesting presentation for sure. Nooku Server does look rather impressive, but I still have my reservations.

During the presentation, it was stated that ACL would be/is being developed by other third parties and isn't an integral feature of Nooku Server. If it's not part of the core feature set, how well would it really integrate with other third party components or Nooku Server itself? More than likely, that's a question that's to early to answer, but as I stated above ACL is one of the features that I am in dire need of and is one of the main features of Joomla 1.6.

One of the recurring themes I'm seeing in both Anahita and Nooku is that it's built by developers for developers. While I'm rather tech savvy, (I'm sure you hear that a lot.) I'm not developer. That makes me some what weary about how well I and these frameworks would get along. Though, even I have a list of features or components that I'd like to develop/have developed that would fill niches that only I would have a need. For that reason, the ease in extendability or modification is appealing.

If Anahita and Nooku are for developers and I still desire to use them, the only logical thing to do is to become a developer (not to your caliber, for sure), or at-least knowledgeable enough to make the modification that I would like. If I was to go down the road of learning Nooku and Anahita for myself, what coding technologies should I begin with and what are the most important to know and learn?

If one wanted to test out Nooku Server, I am rather interested in testing out the multisite abilities and figure out exactly how it works, how would someone go about doing that?
Johan Janssens
Johan Janssens
February 07 2011 Permalink
Thanks Nick. To answer your questions :

1. ACL

What I explained during the presentation is that ACL in Nooku is a separate layer that is designed to be flexible and extendible. Permissions are very specific to the type of web application you build and also very specific to the workflow you require.

With our Nooku Platform we don't target only CMS solutions, we target web applications in general. Solutions build with Nooku can be a CMS but also a social solution like Anahita, or an events management platform like Ohanah. Each of those has very specific needs for ACL's and Nooku Framework provides for the flexibility.

2. Developers

Nooku is innovative open source web platform, driven by a community of developers. Nooku is not a turnkey product, it's a collaborative project.

For example Nooku Framework allows you to build solutions with less code, up to 80% , more flexibility and better security. If you are a developer you can join our community to learn how, or if you rather have some else develop it you can find a developer in the community that can provide you with the required services.

In case you wish to learn to wield the power of Nooku and Anahita yourself technologies to learn are, CSS2/3, HTML4/5, PHP5/OOP and Javascript. Most important learning how to code in PHP.

3. Testing

The multi-site capabilities are going to be included in alpha 2. If you want to test them you will need to wait a bit until we have released alpha 2 which is scheduled for March.
Nick Swinford
Nick Swinford
February 09 2011 Permalink
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my questions. It's very much appreciated.

I've looked all over code.nooku.org and nooku.org and haven't been able to find a downloadable package. Am I just missing it?
Nick Swinford
Nick Swinford
February 09 2011 Permalink
Thank you Eugene :)

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